Correspondence

Ask the ADI Registrar about modernising driver training

Published 16 July 2013

Applies to England, Scotland and Wales

1. About the webchat

The webchat was a chance for approved driving instructors (ADIs) to put any questions they had about proposals to modernise driver training to Mark Magee, ADI Registrar.

Mark was joined by Ian Holden, Senior Education Advisor at the Driving Standards Agency (DSA).

The webchat was held on Tuesday 9 July 2013 from 10am to 11am.

2. Questions and answers

All of the questions and answers from the webchat are published here. This includes questions that Mark and Ian answered during the webchat, and those that they weren’t able to answer because they ran out of time.

They are grouped into themes:

2.1 ADI grading structure

Question 1

As the pass rates for test centres varies widely due to socio-economic spread in their areas, would it also be fair to consider adjusting our rate depending on where we are teaching?

Answer

We’re asking for views on what information would be useful and fair to make available to potential consumers. This is a very open question and we have no pre-conceived ideas.

Question 2

Good morning Mark, I have trained with the professional ADI and have not earned a penny during my training period while he was in the car. I was happy to do that as I wanted to gain valuable experience, however not everyone is prepared to do that. I also find that current check test is not what ADIs like as the time does not allow for clear assessment not everyone performs well on test situation but have done many CPD courses which do not seem to be counted. What is DSA proposing to replace the current grading (which public does not understand) with?

Answer

We’re asking for views on changing the ADI grading structure to use descriptors instead of numbers, or fewer grades, as we know the current system is felt to be confusing for some. We would welcome your views on your preferred structure.

Question 3

In all the years I have been teaching I have never once been asked about my check-test grading - this doesn’t seem pupil based at all. Surely our pass rates should be good enough?

Answer

The government’s proposed wider consultation on measures to improve the safety of young drivers will invite views on how to improve the general information that is available to learners and parents. We want to help people to choose the ADI best able to meet their learning needs. We’re asking for views on the information about ADIs that you think it would be useful and fair for DSA to make available to potential consumers. We’re also asking for views on changing the ADI grading structure to use descriptors instead of numbers, or fewer grades, as we know the current system is felt to be confusing for some.

Question 4

Sorry I forgot to put my name to the point I made regarding ADI training and what is DSA replacing the grading with from current grading system?

Answer

The consultation is seeking views on the ADI grading structure. There are no pre-conceived ideas.

Question 5

What will be the new grading structure for ADIs and exactly what information do you intend to put into the public domain regarding the ADIs profile status etcetera?

Answer

We have made no decisions about a new grading structure. The structure of the new standards check form suggests, to some people, that there should only be 4 grades. It has also been suggested that we use descriptors such as ‘competent’ or ‘excellent’ instead of numbers. Similarly, we have made no decisions about what ADI information we put in the public domain. The government is keen that customers know what they are getting when they purchase a service.

2.2 Civil sanctions

Question 6

How would fines (civil sanctions) help to improve the standards of instruction? It is better that ADIs know if they do not meet standards they could be removed from the register, giving fines looks more like a money making opportunity.

Answer

Civil sanctions would not be aimed at improving the standards of instruction. This is what the standards check is for. They would be aimed at improving compliance in other areas such as displaying the ADI badge in the window when giving paid instruction.

Question 7

Is not the threat to remove from the register or a written warning enough to enforce compliance? After all, no ADI wants to be sacked. Is your prime motive to raise extra revenue from ADIs who are already suffering the economic downturn?

Answer

The consultation is simply exploring the level of support for this becoming a feature of the ADI regulatory regime. They would be used with a view to improve the ADI’s behaviour, make sure that there’s no financial benefit to the ADI from non-compliance, and impose a penalty that was appropriate to the offence.

Question 8

Why do you as Registrar want the ability to issue civil sanctions? There are plenty of regulations and legislations in place to cover all potential eventualities.

Answer

At the moment the Registrar can only issue a written warning or remove an ADI from the register. We are simply exploring the level of support at this stage.

Question 9

Why does the DSA see the need to be able to issue civil sanctions?

Answer

The consultation is simply exploring the level of support for this becoming a feature of the ADI regulatory regime. It would provide me, as Registrar, with greater flexibility to deal with non-compliance. At the moment, I have only a written warning or removal from the register.

Question 10

Why does the DSA want the ability to issue civil sanctions when there is already legislation in place to cover all potential problems?

Answer

At the moment the Registrar can only issue a written warning or remove an ADI from the register. We are simply exploring the level of support at this stage.

Question 11

Will the DSA consider using the civil sanction/similar against its own employees as I assume this would be made public and not as an internal matter

Answer

The use of civil sanctions is set out in legislation, which doesn’t make provision for allowing them to be used against employees.

2.3 Costs

Question 12

Are you thinking about setting a fixed cost for PDI’s or would you leave that up to the training association?

Answer

The cost of taking the ADI qualification will be entirely a matter for the training organisations. There will be registration and certification fees payable to the awarding organisation and they may offer some guidance to their centres about realistic pricing. However, pricing will not be influenced in any way by the DSA.

Question 13

Can you confirm that the DSA would continue to be responsible for standards checks after the achievement of a vocational qualification? If the qualification is assessed through an awarding organisation regulated by Ofqual would this not be better conducted by those who are qualified to assess them and not the DSA?

Answer

The qualification and registration processes are entirely separate. A qualification is required to get on the register but once on the register continued licence-to-practice is the responsibility of the Registrar acting on behalf of the Secretary of State. The standards check is the primary instrument by which the Registrar assures them of the continuing competence of an ADI. DSA examiner staff are fully qualified to carry out that competence check.

Question 14

How can you justify £300 for an ADI’s ‘badge’ -what does this money do? Surely it should just be an admin fee?

Answer

The registration fee aims to cover the cost to DSA of administering and maintaining an ADI’s registration during the 4-year period which includes things like any check tests which they may be required to take, their criminal record check, maintaining the computer database and the salary costs of the staff involved in considering their registration application.

Question 15

How would the proposal that ADIs accompany PDI’s on paid lessons work? Financially I mean. Everyone is just scraping by at the moment.

Answer

It is not for DSA to specify the financial arrangement between the pupil, PDI and ADI.

Question 16

I think the need for change is clear. However, given that some of the large training providers have been through administration and it is well known smaller organisations struggle to stay solvent, can the industry absorb the costs of the proposed changes?

Answer

Having engaged with ORDIT providers through a series of workshops last year, the Impact Assessment accompanying the consultation sets out our assumptions on costs and benefits. It’s important that you look at this and respond to the specific question in the consultation on this point

Question 17

In amongst all the comments about costs will there be an option to pay monthly by direct debit?

Answer

This has previously been ruled out as it would cost extra for us to monitor who has paid etc. Under the proposal to break out the fee for the standards check, ADIs would in essence be able to spread out the payments.

Question 18

Mr Magee, I am sure there were lots of messages but a cost implication is surely a BIG one!!!?

Answer

The impact assessment sets out our assumptions on the costs and benefits.

Question 19

Morning all. I am unclear about the economics of having a qualified ADI in the car when a holder of a pink license is giving lessons and gaining experience in preparation for his Part 3. Can you give us your view on how the costings would work please?

Answer

We are proposing that a trainee cannot give unsupervised on-road instruction. Having an ADI in the car will also ensure that they receive feedback on their performance. We do not believe that it is for DSA to specify the financial arrangements, this will be a matter between the trainee and ADI

Question 20

Morning. We are concerned about the economics of having a qualified ADI in the car when a pink license holder is giving a lesson in preparation for his or her Part 3. Can you throw some light on your view of how this would work economically?

Answer

It is not for the DSA to be explicit on the financial arrangement between the pupil, trainee and ADI.

Question 21

Surely someone is asking- “what will it cost to be an assessor?”

Answer

The assessor qualification is something an individual holds. At this moment Assessor qualifications are available for around £650 + VAT.

Question 22

Looking at the estimated costings it will cost around the £30k mark to become accredited, let alone remain accredited, so that puts the majority of local driving schools who train a small number of quality ADIs out of contention.

Answer

The impact assessment sets out our assumptions on the costs and benefits. It is very unlikely to cost £30k for accreditation.

Question 23

What will it cost an ADI trainer to become a vocational assessor?

Answer

Courses are currently available at £650 + VAT.

Question 24

What will it cost an ADI training organisation to become assessors to provide the qualification?

Answer

Organisations cannot become assessors. The assessor qualification is something an individual holds. At this moment Assessor qualifications are available for around £650 + Vat.

2.4 Existing ADIs

Question 25

How do you propose to integrate existing ADIs into the vocational qualification system?

Answer

The vocational qualification does not impact upon existing ADIs although they are free to do the qualification if they choose. We are aligning the check test with the DSA standards from April 2014.

Question 26

Having just qualified as an ADI, how do all these changes affect me?

Answer

The proposals on the qualification process won’t affect you. However, the proposals about changes around registration such as the check test and check test booking process do.

Question 27

I teach primarily in inner city areas and have a lot of pupils with learning difficulties (diagnosed or not), language challenges or no educational background. If we were judged on our pass rates these pupils would have great difficulty finding anyone to take them to test.

Answer

We’re asking for views on what information would be useful and fair to make available to potential consumers. This is a very open question and we have no pre-conceived ideas.

Question 28

What if an ADI wants to study for the vocational qualification?

Answer

There is nothing to stop an ADI studying for any qualification. If they are on the register already it will make no difference to their registration. However, having a formal qualification might give them the opportunity to step off into some other form of training or education.

Question 29

Will current ADIs be awarded the vocational qualification as they have already qualified as ADIs?

Answer

No. ADIs are already qualified. There will be nothing to stop them taking the qualification if they want to but it will not be a requirement.

Question 30

Would existing ADIs be expected to take these vocational qualifications?

Answer

No, ADIs won’t have to take the vocational qualification to stay registered. However, they can take them if they choose to.

2.5 ORDIT

Question 31

As a sole trader ORDIT registered, I am very concerned about the new proposals of ADI training for those who have worked hard as I have to become ORDIT accredited.

Answer

We appreciate your concerns. Your experience on ORDIT will enable you to be well placed to be involved in the delivery of any qualification. As the consultation paper explained, you will have to work with others. the vocational qualification also opens up potential opportunities to get involved in other ways. An ORDIT trainer last night said that he was considering whether to put himself forward for the external quality assurance role.

Question 32

I am currently studying the TAQA assessor award in preparation for the changes, will I still be able to trade as a sole trader ADI Trainer (Training centre)- as I will become an assessor , as long as my work is verified by an outside organisation?

Answer

The key change that the vocational qualification would bring is that you would have to be in a formal relationship with other people, working through the awarding organisation, to ensure the provision of the verification and internal quality assurance functions etc. The awarding organisations are very flexible in how they handle that sort of thing.

Question 33

I am in the process of becoming an ORDIT trainer, is it worth me doing it - given that it will be replaced? Would I be able to transfer my knowledge without additional cost to me?

Answer

If supported, the new vocational qualification won’t come into effect until 2015. Ultimately it’s your decision as to whether or not you invest in joining ORDIT before ministers make decisions and the response to consultation is published. Experience on ORDIT will enable people to be well placed to be involved in the delivery of any qualification.

Question 34

I am not sure if you received my previous query, apologies if you have. Can you tell us what extra qualification existing trainers will need to continue training under option 1

Answer

If you want to deliver the qualification you will need to be an ADI and you will need to satisfy the Awarding Organisation’s requirements. They will need you to be a qualified assessor. If you then want to go on to provide internal quality assurance you will have to gain the internal quality assurance qualification. The important thing to remember though is that these are not academic qualifications. They are workbased competence qualifications.

Question 35

I am pleased to see that a single person can assess their own trainees and act as an independent verifier for someone else. What is beyond me is why they can no longer be sole traders. They simply don different hats depending on what is required. I can see nothing in this arrangement that prevents them being a sole trader. All it means is that there is an extra person in the mix doing assessing and that is fine.

Answer

The key point about the changes that would come if we developed a vocational qualification is that trainers would have to enter into formal relationships with other trainers, to satisfy the requirements for internal verification etc. Those formal relationships would have to be robust enough to satisfy the awarding organisation that they were going to be implemented rigorously and reliably. That might well be easier to manage if the parties involved came together under a single organisational umbrella. In technical terms you may well be right that they could technically remain as sole traders e.g. from a HM Revenue and Customs point of view. However, it will represent a significant change for those individuals who have always done everything themselves - not least having somebody else looking at the quality of the work they are doing.

Question 36

Mark the DSA/Ofqual need to give ORDIT registered trainers as much information as possible relating to how you see option 1 working in practice.

Answer

We have set out our assumptions in the consultation documentation and the impact assessment. It is important that if you let us know if there is more information that you need. We will do our best to provide answers.

Question 37

Mark would you agree that under option 1, the majority of trainers on the ORDIT register currently will not be able to continue giving instructor training. Are Ofqual proposing to take all ORDIT trainers under their wing and offer them all work?

Answer

They would all be able to continue to operate if they work with others. Around 30% of ORDIT trainers are sole traders

Question 38

What advice/ help will current ORDIT registered companies get to move onto the new vocational qualification system?

Answer

Once we get confirmation that the vocational qualification is going to go ahead we will start to work with the awarding organisations to ensure that ORDIT and other training companies have all the information that they need. The awarding organisations have very good support processes and, if you express an interest in being accredited, they will walk you through the process.

Question 39

Will APL apply to ORDIT registered trainers wishing to go the qualified assessor route?

Answer

This would be an awarding organisation function, not DSA’s. Yes, they would look for and give APL.

Question 40

Will ORDIT trainers be allowed to have talks with Ofqual to be able to get a better understanding of how the option 1 process might work BEFORE the end date of this consultation?

Answer

Any person may approach Ofqual at any time for general information about the operation of qualifications. Similarly, there is nothing to stop you contacting the awarding organisations to talk about the general principles of becoming an accredited centre. However, as the ADI qualification has not yet been approved, has not been written in detail and has not been approved for inclusion on the Qualifications and Credit Framework, they will not be able to comment on the details of how it would operate.

Question 41

Will the ORDIT registered trainers still be recognised as training providers?

Answer

If we move to a vocational qualification ORDIT registered trainers will not be able to provide training unless they become an accredited training centre under and awarding organisation.

2.6 Qualification process

Question 42

An outside accrediting awarding organisation would be driven by profit. What’s to stop them failing students to gain more test fees, thus making more profit?

Answer

Accrediting organisations do work in a commercial environment and any attempt by them to manipulate the results of a vocational qualification to increase their profits would be a major concern. However, there are a couple factors that work against this. Firstly, in a competence based vocational qualification there are multiple forms of assessment. The evidence from those assessments is brought together in a portfolio by the candidates working with their assessor. It is cross checked by the internal verifier and it is externally checked by the external verifier. Assessment is not based on a single test. It would, therefore, be quite a complex and challenging process to try to deliberately fail candidates. The other factor that would limit their ability to do this would be that, if they could somehow manipulate the figures to fail more candidates, candidates would soon stop going to them. If it became clear that a particular awarding organisation was tougher to get through they would lose customers. Finally, any suggestion that an awarding organisation was trying to manipulate results would result in action by Ofqual. Ultimately Ofqual can take away their licence to practice, which is a pretty big penalty to risk just for a few extra students.

Question 43

Are the DSA satisfied they can maintain standards when they do not conduct tests? Are they aware of the level of scripting that goes on in check tests?

Answer

Ian Holden: We are of course very concerned about maintaining standards. If we set up a qualification we will work with the awarding organisation to agree what assessments we want and what evidence of competence we require. The internal and external verification processes will then be designed to ensure that evidence is gathered consistently. The important thing to remember in a vocation qualification there is more than one test. The student needs to produce a portfolio of evidence.

Question 44

Are you not concerned that this will go the same way as the fleet qualification, certain companies just pushing through candidates with the “you can’t fail this course” point of view?

Answer

We would, of course, be very concerned about any suggestion that training organisations were pushing candidates through a VQ if they were not competent. In writing the documentation for the VQ we will be setting very clear standards around assessment and the evidence of competence that we will accept. We will be working very closely with the awarding organisations to ensure that the appropriate internal quality assurance processes are in place. The external quality assurance staff will be specifically charged with ensuring that assessment is being carried out, and recorded to the appropriate level etc. The important thing to remember is that, where we find evidence of wilful abuse of this system, the training centre involved will lose its accreditation. That will mean, as far as ADI training is concerned, they are out of business. Given all trainers will also be ADIs, we’d also want to consider possible removal from the register

Question 45

Can you give us an example of the type of organisation you expect to be the AO in the new scheme? What expertise do you expect them to bring to the process that is not available within the training organisations or the DSA?

Answer

Awarding organisations are those approved by Ofqual for the delivery, assessment and certification of qualifications e.g. Edexcel, City and Guilds, OCR, SQA and a variety of others. The expertise they bring is about managing assessment and quality assurance processes and recording and certifying achievement of credit. It is not about driver training as such.

Question 46

I and several of my ADIs recently became fleet registered through a VQ provider within our industry (together with a level 3 in customer service) and the entire process was scripted from start to end.

Answer

If by ‘scripted from start to end’ we mean that it had no real content or substance then that is clearly a major problem. We would, of course, be very concerned if an ADI qualification was discredited in this way. The documentation for the qualification will include very clear standards around assessment and the evidence of competence that we will accept. Clearly, if we don’t get that right then there will be problems. Equally if trainers do not comply fully with the quality assurance procedures things will quickly go badly wrong. We will be working very closely with the awarding organisations to ensure that the appropriate internal quality assurance processes are in place. The external quality assurance staff will be specifically charged with ensuring that assessment is being carried out, and recorded to the appropriate level etc. The important thing to remember is that, if there is evidence of wilful abuse of this system, the training centre involved will be challenged by the awarding organisation. The awarding organisation will in turn be answerable to Ofqual or its Welsh and Scottish equivalents. Ultimately, if they do not get things sorted out, any organisation that fails to meet the required standards will risk losing its accreditation. That will mean, as far as ADI training is concerned, they are out of business. Given all trainers will also be ADIs it is also likely that the Registrar will consider removal from the register.

Question 47

I am already a city & guilds accredited assessor, I hold my A1 qualification, I’m also a registered ADI. Would I have to attain any further assessor qualification or is holding my A1 satisfactory?

Answer

It is likely that anybody holding A1 would be qualified to become an Assessor on the VQ. However, as you will appreciate, it is for the awarding organisation to satisfy itself that anybody holding a nominally equivalent prior qualification had retained their competence and can demonstrate any additional competence requirements that might have emerged since they qualified.

Question 48

I have read all the papers and the impact assessment but I am unclear about the VQ route. Does it mean that a trainee can gain the VQ without ever getting in a car? It talks about training centres and implies an actual establishment. Attending classes will be hard for many people as many will not live nearby. Equally, the cost of operating a “centre” is prohibitive. With no opportunity to offset training costs with lessons, do you not think that the cost of training will increase? The paper implied an ambition to increase the pass rate overall and reduce the financial risk for trainees, did it not?

Answer

No it does not mean that a trainee can gain the VQ without getting into a car. In writing the qualification documentation we will specify exactly how a person must demonstrate their competence. So, for example, if we take a competence such as: “provide timely and appropriate explanations and demonstrations of the skills and techniques required to drive or ride a vehicle safely and responsibly, including the any use of adaptations where fitted” we would require that to be demonstrated practically and in a sufficiently wide range of on-road contexts to be able to be sure that the student could reliably do that in any driving situation. Clearly there is a cost trade-off there. We cannot expect demonstration in every conceivable context of every possible skill or technique but there must be sufficient, practical, evidence to be reasonably confident. The concept of a training centre does not necessarily mean an actual establishment with classrooms etc. For the majority of training purposes the classroom will continue to be the training vehicle. Some organisations may have scope to bring some training in-doors but that is not an absolute requirement. “

Question 49

In the proposal you prefer an option of an outside accredited organisation taking over the qualification process. I don’t believe that such an organisation exists with the necessary technical know-how. Many educational institutions have never experienced the moving environment of instructing in a vehicle. They may have the required teachings know-how, but this is a very technical and specialised subject. Which you would know if you had attempted the current qualifying process.

Answer

The organisation taking over the delivery of the qualification process is you, the members of the industry working through awarding organisations. They do not need technical know-how, you have that. What they do have is the expertise to help and guide you all to deliver training and assessment consistently and at the right level. The awarding organisations will not teach. You will. It is exactly because this is a challenging, technical subject that we want ADIs to have full credit and recognition for what they do.

Question 50

Is there anything stopping an ADI trainer from being as Assessor for his own trainees, an Internal Verifier for someone else, and an External Verifier for someone else again? Assuming that he holds all the relevant qualifications?

Answer

An ADI trainer will be the assessor for their own trainees. They can then be a verifier for others and an EV elsewhere. Clearly they cannot have any commercial relationship with anybody they provide the EV role for.

Question 51

Question to Ian Holden. I have the assessor’s qualification D32/D33/D34 with Internal verification. Is there anything else I will need to accredit our Driving School?

Answer

Ian Holden: It sounds to me as if you are a good way down the road to being able to gain accreditation but, as you will know, in order to be able to operate the internal quality assurance procedures you need to have a minimum number of staff. You cannot be your own assessor and verifier. If you meet those structural requirements, and you can satisfy the requirements to be able to keep and maintain appropriate records etc, then you would appear to have a reasonable case to apply to an awarding organisation for accreditation. However, I have to say that the decision to accredit a training centre is entirely the responsibility of the awarding organisation and I cannot make any guarantees on their behalf.

Question 52

Thank you for asking normal ADIs for a change, this is the first time I have known us being asked in a way that is not loaded towards an already made decision, thank you for asking us the guys and gals you expect to do the work in making the new drivers safe, in the past you have asked the driving instructor service for information, that primarily consisted of business that make money (to the point of bleeding them into bankruptcy) out of naive ADIs who just wish to make an honest living. Are the big driving school providers going to be controlled in the same way as the individual ADIs are? A lot of the problem with poor instruction is the fact that instructors who foolishly get tied into an unworkable franchise cannot make it pay, get carried along on false promises and end up cheapening lessons off in order to get out of debt. The large franchises make innuendo and semi promises about how much work is available and tie up potentially good instructors into contracts that make money for the franchise and break the instructor, so he/she is then lost to the business. We need proper monitoring and regulation on that side of the business as well.

Answer

It’s very important that everyone has a chance. I attended a regional ADI meeting in the North West yesterday evening and it was good to hear the views of ADIs on the ground. Under the proposal for a vocational qualification, DSA would continue to regulate ADIs as they do now. Instructor trainers would be regulated through Ofqual.”

Question 53

There seems to me to be very little point in coming up with a regime that will be economically nonviable. Then again, this sort of basic reality has never bothered the Civil Service in the past, so no change there then.

Answer

The impact assessment sets out our assumptions of the cost and benefits. It’s important that you respond to the consultation if you have concerns.

Question 54

What is APL?

Answer

APL stands for Accreditation of Prior Learning. There is also something called APEL Accreditation of Prior Experiential Learning. This is a system which is operated by awarding organisations, universities etc. to ensure that somebody is not required to demonstrate the same competence or knowledge twice. If, for example, you have completed part of a teaching qualification before starting to train as an ADI you might already have demonstrated some of the competences that would be required on the ADI vocational qualification e.g. lesson planning. An awarding organisation has the option of giving you credit for that prior learning and that, in turn, would mean that you could save money and time. However, there is another side of the issue ie ensuring that you do not get credit twice. The awarding organisation will need to assure itself that you are not getting more than you are entitled to.

Question 55

When will guidelines and training materials be published for delivery of the new qualification?

Answer

The guidelines and training materials for a new qualification will not be published until we get formal confirmation that the qualification will go ahead. In practice that means when the appropriate legislation/regulations are laid before parliament. Until that point no awarding organisation is going to commit resources to the development of materials. Also, until that point we cannot be sure of the exact content and structure of the qualification.

Question 56

Whilst I am comfortable with the notion of ‘Vocational’ Qualifications, I am not so happy that there is the potential for individuals from the Police to gain ADI status without having to jump through the same hoops. Also, I am curious about what the assessments qualification will be required for ADIs. Is this the old A1 role?

Answer

Your concern about people, such as Police officers being able to gain ADI status without having to jump through the same hoops is perfectly valid. There is no intention that anybody should be able to avoid demonstrating all the required competences to the required level. However, where somebody has already clearly demonstrated competence it is equally unfair that they should be asked, and charged, to do it again. The aim would be to identify where a person clearly has demonstrated competence, using the recognised Accreditation of Prior Learning process and then require them to fill in the gaps. As for assessment qualifications, anybody holding the old A1 would probably be qualified to become an Assessor on the VQ. However it would be for the awarding organisation to satisfy itself that anybody holding a nominally equivalent prior qualification had retained their competence and could demonstrate any additional competence requirements that might have emerged since they qualified. “

Question 57

Will the larger players in the industry become the VQ provider, or will it be provided through academic establishments?

Answer

The vocational qualification will be delivered by any training organisation that can meet the requirements of the awarding organisations. That means that they must have sufficient, suitably qualified staff to operate the assessor and verifier quality assurance roles. They must also be able to manage the assessment delivery and recording processes, retain records securely etc. However, within those broad guidelines the awarding organisations are keen and able to support a variety of flexible delivery models. So, for example, a hub and spoke arrangement where individuals or small organisations come together under an umbrella organisation to manage the provision of verification etc, should, subject to detailed discussion with the awarding organisations, be possible. For example, a local trade association might want to consider becoming the umbrella organisation for its members. In which case that association could become the accredited training centre.

2.7 Standards check

Question 58

Do you expect the change to the standards check will improve the standard of ADIs and if so , in what way?

Answer

The revised standards check is better aligned to DSA’s National standard for driver and rider training. The new assessment form will help an ADI to understand their strengths or where they are in need of development.

Question 59

Hi Mark, I welcome a lot of the check test changes, particularly using real clients. What I would really like to see though is the examiners meeting us in the field with no notice. Why not make it really realistic, we shouldn’t need to prepare for check test and it always is a real inconvenience at present finding clients to fit in with DSA appointments.

Answer

One of the proposals that we’re asking for views on is introducing an online booking system so ADIs can book a standards check that is convenient for them, rather than DSA. We would welcome your feedback on whether you support this proposal. The difficulty with examiners meeting ADIs with no notice is that the lesson would already have started by the time that the examiner entered the car

Question 60

What assurance can you give that the persons conducting the standards tests are up to it? My view is if they can’t do it themselves then they can’t assess.

Answer

All check test examiners have undergone extensive training during which they must, at least, meet the minimum standards required to be on the register. Check test examiners will be undergoing further training ahead of the standards check being introduced.

Question 61

When ADI trainers are responsible under Ofqual for training and assessment and as a consequence the trainee ADIs registration with the DSA, do you think there will be a disconnect and confusion if the DSA then conduct standards checks after they have a vocational qualification? Would it not be for the assessment centre to continue this requirement?

Answer

At the present moment the Registrar retains the obligation, under the Secretary of State, to ensure the on-going fitness of ADIs. The standards check process has been designed to match the sorts of competences that will be required by the qualification so there should be no disconnect.

2.8 Trainee licence scheme

Question 62

Are we not dealing with Simple macroeconomics here? As I understand it the register remains open to all who wish to provide tuition services on a paid for basis, the number of people learning to drive has dropped dramatically over the last three years. Is this not a simple business model? Ian makes a very valid point. As we are all self-employed that would become a very expensive exercise for the pupil in the car or are we suggesting that the ADI is the one receiving the fee and the PDI is working for nothing?”

Answer

The trainee licence scheme is designed to help trainees get experience of providing training, rather than to provide a living. If we went down the route of only improving the trainee licence, it would be up to the PDI and ADI how they charged the pupil and each other.

Question 63

Can any ADI supervise a PDI on a lesson and who does the Pupil pay?

Answer

Under the proposed changes to the trainee licence scheme, any registered ADI can supervise the trainee giving instruction. It would be for the trainee and ADI to come to an agreement on who the pupil pays.

Question 64

Currently the trainee licences are granted for an “indefinite” period when PDIs are often unsupervised. Why not enforce only one trainee licence rule? If the PDI does not reach the required standard in the first go then probably her standard of teaching is questionable.

Answer

Trainee licences are not granted for an indefinite period. A PDI is entitled to apply for an initial licence for up to 6 months. It is then at the Registrar’s discretion if a second licence is issued. Experience shows that not all PDIs are able to make full use of their trainee licence due to, for example, medical problems.

Question 65

Proposed changes to the TL need to happen as it is being abused by a large percentage of schools. However does the DSA feel it currently does everything within its power to police it though? For example, even though I ensure all of my PDIs undertake at least 2 hours of training a week, and certainly the additional 20 hours within the first 3 month of their TL, I haven’t had a single one in at least 6 years that has been asked to produce an ADI21AT to prove that they have undertaken any additional training?

Answer

Trainees are asked to send this to us. We do undertake random spot checks

Question 66

Why would a PDI want to deliver paid instruction under the proposals if he or she has to then pay the ADI to observe the lesson? Seems to be an unworkable proposal to me

Answer

We are proposing that a trainee cannot give paid, unsupervised, on-road instruction. Having an ADI in the car will also ensure that they receive feedback on their performance. We do not believe that it is for DSA to specify the financial arrangements, this will be a matter between the trainee and ADI.

2.9 Transition arrangements

Question 67

Can you tell me please when the revised PDI process is to take place, and also (on behalf of a friend who failed his part 3 recently) why do potential instructors only have 3 attempts at part 3 and why do they have to wait 2 years before they recommence?

Answer

The new vocational qualification would be introduced in 2015. It is important to set some parameters around the qualification process. Three attempts give the person a reasonable opportunity to meet the minimum standards. They do not have to wait two years but two years after the date on which they first passed the ADI part 1

Question 68

During the interim period between changes from the current ADI qualifying system to the new proposal there will be a void for small businesses in producing driving instructors, have you considered this?

Answer

If we move to a vocational qualification there will be a transition period. Anybody who has started out on the DSA route when the vocational qualifications is switched on will be able to complete by that route. On that basis, a small business that has signed up to deliver the VQ is more likely to find itself running two processes in parallel rather than having a void.

Question 69

Hi, when are you thinking of making the change, and how long do you think the transition period would be?

Answer

It’s expected that any VQ would start in the second half of 2015 so the first qualified ADIs would enter the register in 2016 (subject to meeting the fit and proper criteria).

Question 70

How about the PDI that will start their training in 2015 before the change, how will they be integrated?

Answer

If the vocational qualification option is supported, there would be a transitional period where those who had already started qualifying under the old process would be able to continue. More information about this is published in the consultation document.

Question 71

Morning Mark, what’s the timeframe? Assuming all consultancy feedback points to Option 1, at what point will you be in a position to ask for legislative change? Realistically, when will the first PDI come on board under the new system? 2 years? 3?

Answer

It’s expected that any VQ would start in the second half of 2015 so the first qualified ADIs would enter the register in 2016 (subject to meeting the fit and proper criteria).

Question 72

My concern is that the franchises have already taken monies from trainee ADIs and so under this new scheme how is this taken into account for trainee ADIs as I am one of the 50% that is not through yet?

Answer

If the vocational qualification option is supported, there would be a transitional period where those who had already started qualifying under the old process would be able to continue. More information about this is published in the consultation document.

2.10 General

Question 73

Another concern I have is about the whole concept of ADIs now having to market themselves to vie for pupils does that mean ADIs are required to be top salesman rather than provide good teaching it seems to be going more that way. This is not in the interest of safe driving for newly qualified drivers.

Answer

The government’s proposed wider consultation on measures to improve the safety of young drivers will invite views on how to improve the general information that is available to learners and parents. We want to help people to choose the ADI best able to meet their learning needs. We’re asking for views on the information about ADIs that you think it would be useful and fair for DSA to make available to potential consumers.

Question 74

Can you tell us what the timeframe would be for the proposed changes under option 1?

Answer

We are hoping that the vocational qualification would start delivery late in 2015 or early in 2016. However, that depends entirely on getting through the various approval processes and gaining the approval of parliament.

Question 75

Do I see a new money making scheme for the DSA? Please tell me these “internal quality assurances” we are required to meet will be free to those that have already invested in ORDIT and other schemes?

Answer

The important thing to remember is that the delivery of the vocational qualification will be entirely the business of the awarding organisation working through approved delivery centres. The DSA will know nothing about students until they qualify and apply to go on the register. The DSA will receive absolutely no payments of any sort in relation to the internal quality assurance processes etc.

Question 76

Do you think ALL ADIs should be retested ie their own driving standard? There is a lot of talk about how we are going to change the training of ADIs but still we only ever have to do One Part Two test.

Answer

The final part of the ‘National standard for driving cars (category B)’ says that, to be a safe and responsible driver, you need to continue to reflect upon your skills, knowledge and understanding as you progress through your driving career and, when you see gaps, take the necessary steps to close them. So, for example, if a year or two after passing your test you start to drive for work you would be well advised to have a session or two with a good ADI. Similarly, you might want to get a few lessons to sharpen you up if you have a family on the way. In that context the first part of the VQ is about demonstrating that you have ‘developed driving competence’ ie you have moved on from the standard you reached when you took your test. The ‘National standard for driver and rider training’ also concludes with a section in which the ADI is challenged to continue to reflect on and develop his or her competences. We hope that ADIs recognise that their driving standard is part of what makes them a good ADI and do the work necessary to maintain and improve their standards. At the present moment there is no suggestion that we will actively re-test.

Question 77

DSA annual report and accounts state “It is also vital that those learning to drive are only taught by people who are properly qualified to do so.” Does this mean moving to compulsory lessons from an ADI only and parents not allowed to teach? If not, the ‘blurb’ should be corrected

Answer

Yes, this is probably slightly misleading as it is expressed. We believe that if somebody is taking money for giving driving instruction then they should be properly qualified to do so. The wider question of how the learning to drive process is structured and who should be allowed to teach is really part of the wider Young Driver discussion.

Question 78

DSA say we must be transparent re pricing but go to the (company name) website and you have to give your details then obtain a quote. I have mine there for all to see. Why aren’t they?

Answer

I’m happy to follow this up.

Question 79

Good morning, can I ask a question about the new standards check ? I’ll ask the question any way, if there is no difference between the standards check for ADI and fleet check then will you allow ADI to be fleet registered automatically.

Answer

No. An ADI has to qualify to deliver fleet and this can be achieved through CPD. The new standards check form is designed to be generic and to assess an instructor’s ability irrespective of the type of pupil. The decision to no longer require the fleet check test is to simplify procedures and reduce the unnecessary burden on those who are on both registers

Question 80

Good morning. Mark, many thanks for your time last night in the North West. Speaking to a number of ADIs afterwards, they found it very informative.

Answer

You’re welcome

Question 81

Good morning. Re the proposal to allow ADIs who have allowed their registration to lapse by more than 12 months to rejoin the register without the need to re-qualify. Will ADIs who have already (ie now) allowed it lapse as indeed I have after 24+ continuous years?

Answer

This will depend on when the new arrangement comes in. We shall want to look at the transition in more detail once we know the proposal has been supported

Question 82

Good morning. I have worked in the industry for some twenty years as an ADI and ORDIT trainer and worked for one of the organisations alluded to by David. The “sausage factory” approach with the Trainee Licence system, where anyone and everyone was accepted on a course that was clearly not for them is long overdue. I see from some of the info so far that organisations will conduct a suitability test, can you tell us more about that and how will the individual trainer be included.

Question 83

Hello Mark, for some reason my earlier comment seems to have been lost viz. the quality of trainee accepted onto courses for ADI qualification by the large companies. The proposal for the TL system (long overdue) is a fantastic idea. I have seen PDI’s on TL’s that should not have been accepted onto a training course in the first place. As said in the info a “suitability” assessment would be carried out could you tell us more about that.”

Answer

Not quite sure what is being referred to here but….

When a student applies to undertake any qualification there is a requirement that the training centre, acting on behalf of the awarding organisation, takes time to ensure that it is the right qualification for them. So, for example, this is the stage at which they will point out that getting the ADI qualification does not give them an automatic right to get onto the Register. Given that, in most cases, the people doing the recruiting will also be the people doing the training there is no reason why they should not be involved in this process. The other point to remember is that the vocational qualification is designed to be in two parts, Developed Driving and Driving Instruction. The reason for constructing it in this way is to allow those students who realise, halfway through, that they really don’t have what it takes to be an ADI, to leave with something under their belt.

Question 84

Have these changes got anything to do with the EU MERIT project. Do they match or exceed those standards?

Answer

For those who don’t know, MERIT was a project undertaken by CIECA - the International Commission on Driver Testing, which advises the EU - to look at the minimum standards for driving instructor training. The DSA National Driver/Rider Training Standards draw on most of the same underpinning models as MERIT e.g. the GDE matrix. The principle difference between the DSA approach and the MERIT approach is that we are very clearly focused on minimum requirements and on learning outcomes whereas MERIT has a greater emphasis on prescribing the way in which those are achieved e.g. the sorts of teaching methods which should be understood and used by an ADI and on the theoretical underpinnings of what an ADI does.

Question 85

Hi there - most of my students seem to use information technology to communicate these days, especially mobile phones and tablets. What’s the DSA’s view about the effect of IT on the quality of driving tuition?

Answer

IT has huge potential to assist in the process of teaching somebody to drive, if it is used well. As you point out most young people are now very IT literate and would probably find it odd if you didn’t use it in some way. There are many ways in which you could use it e.g. to test theoretical understanding or to record comments to be passed on to accompanying drivers. If you are to teach a young person, in fairly remote area, what it is going to be like when they have to drive around Marble Arch in the rush hour what better way than to click on a video or even link to a live traffic camera. The important thing is that, as with any other teaching aid, it is used appropriately to support your teaching process and not as a replacement for good engagement with the learner.

Question 86

How come trailer trainers are exempt from all this?

Answer

This would extend the regulatory framework and therefore increase the regulatory burden

Question 87

I am concerned that this whole exercise is concerned with inputs rather than outcomes. We have the safest roads in the world, which is great. We lost 1901 lives in 2011 and 10 times that in seriously or life changing injured. Not so great. The DSA needs to seriously look at ways of developing training for both new and existing drivers to significantly reduce these numbers and then think about how best to deliver the training. Very simply, while there is a syllabus, it is not tested, so there is no compelling reason for students to pay out for what they regard as unnecessary gold plating.

Answer

This whole area is the subject of the Young Drivers Green Paper which the government is committed to publish this autumn.

Question 88

I give up. I have sent four messages and none have got through. What is going on?

Answer

Sorry - we’ve got a lot of questions to get through. Your questions will get answered - we’ll publish these and email you a link.

Question 89

I was hoping to hear that the voluntary was going to be made mandatory for LGV Instructors!

Answer

The proposals set out in the consultation paper relate to the regulatory framework for ADIs. As explained in the consultation paper, ministers are not looking to extend regulation to the various voluntary registers

Question 90

If the pass rate is to rise from 48% to around 70% will this not lead to more over supply of instructors and drive down living standards and lesson standards even more?

Answer

Our role is to set and ensure minimum standards. As part of my Registrar role I am looking to ensure that we deal swiftly and effectively that those who fail to do this

Question 91

In the proposed re-vamp, trailer instructors are to remain exempt. Why? They are still teaching a driving skill, although I grant you that the trailer legislation is totally bonkers.

Answer

This would extend the regulatory framework and therefore increase the regulatory burden

Question 92

Most if not all of the national driving schools are owned by non ADIs, as is one of the ADI national associations. These therefore would stay outside the DSA’s regulatory framework.

Answer

The ADI regulatory framework places regulation on individual instructors. Regulating also driving schools would significantly extend the regulatory footprint.

Question 93

Re: Publishing Pass Rates. Quite a few ADIs teach in inner city areas and a lot of our pupils face challenges like Learning difficulties (diagnosed or not), language issues or lack of educational background. These pupils have no problem finding an instructor as they will need lots of lessons but if an ADI were judged on their pass rate then these same pupils would not be taken to test as their failure rate is high. Currently my pass rate is bad because I enjoy the challenge of pupils who struggle to pass but are great drivers. If I teach in the richer suburbs where the pupils are ,ainly

Answer

There are no current plans to publish pass rates

Question 94

Regarding proposed changes to modernising driver training exactly what information do you intend to put into the public domain regarding the ADIs profile status etcetera?

Answer

We’re asking for views on what information should it would be useful and fair to make available to potential consumers. This is a very open question and we have no pre-conceived ideas.

Question 95

What are you going to do to regulate driving schools you have had the powers since the 2006 Road Traffic Act when will you use them?

Answer

The government is on record of wanting to reduce the level of regulation. Many driver schools will be run by ADIs who are already regulated. Therefore, Ministers have opted not to regulate driving schools at this stage

Question 96

The government are trying to reduce red tape to help businesses ease their burden. Setting up to become accredited is going to involve significant paperwork to follow procedures. Is this not a burden on businesses?

Answer

The awarding organisations are also under the same pressure to minimise burden. Their accreditation processes are as light touch as possible.

Question 97

Under new proposals how can a trainee get experience with real life pupils if the VQ provider is not a driving school? Therefore this system will only work for the larger driving schools that provide the VQ, and smaller well established and reputable trainers will not be able to grow their business.

Answer

There is nothing in the vocational qualification proposals to stop a trainee gaining unsupervised experience with real life learners. The only thing they cannot do is take money for the training they give. The assessment requirements for the vocational qualification will not include any specific requirement to demonstrate competence with real life pupils and it is perfectly possible to train somebody to be an ADI without giving them that experience. However, there will clearly be advantages to using real-life learners especially when it comes to carrying out assessment.

Question 98

What do you mean “regulate driving schools”

Answer

There are no current plans to regulate driving schools. The ADI regulatory regime places regulation on individual instructors

Question 99

What information RE: ADIs would you like to be made available to the public?

Answer

The government’s objective is that customers should have as much information as possible to enable them to make informed decisions when they purchase services. However, we all know that statistics around things like training often hide important factors such as the variation in the background of the people being taught. In that context, our objective would be to make as much information available as possible that you were happy gave a fair picture of just how good an ADI you are.

Question 100

What is the government going to put in place for further driver training for people who have passed their tests? We teach them what they need to know about road safety while training but they do not need to do any more training once they pass. Putting some sort of compulsory training in place would also reduce road deaths.

Answer

Again, this is a very important issue but it is not part of the ADI vocational qualification discussion. The government will be publishing a Young Drivers Green Paper in the autumn. That paper will be focused on the content of the learning to drive process but it may also look at what happens after people have passed their test.

Question 101

Why does a made up complaint from a learner driver have to stay on your register for 2 years?

Answer

I’m not sure that I understand the question. We treat all complaints seriously. If it was proven that any complaint had been made up then it would only be fair for it to be struck out

Question 102

Will Bankruptcy affect being entered or remaining on the ADI Register?

Answer

We don’t see why this should be in different from now

Question 103

Will it really matter what ADIs think or say! Won’t you just make the changes if you want to anyway!!!

Answer

The power to make any changes does not lie with the DSA but with government. They are extremely concerned that we do not impose additional burden or cost on industry and the consultation process is a key part of confirming that these proposals are viable. That is why it is so important that you respond to the consultation if you have real concerns or issue, or feel that we have made incorrect assumptions at any point.

Question 104

Will some of the extra roles mentioned in the report such as assessors be made available to the ado directly from the. Controlling body?

Answer

The important thing to grasp here is that an assessor is not really an extra role. Within competence based, vocational qualifications the person primarily responsible for training a student is also their assessor. Some training could be provided by non-assessors but, in general an assessor will work with a student to help them gain and demonstrate competence. Once they are happy that sufficient evidence has been accumulated they will sign-off that particular competence. Internal quality assurance is provided by trainer/assessors within an organisation who also take on the role of cross-checking the work of colleagues to ensure that they have interpreted the assessment criteria correctly and have only signed-off competence when it has actually been demonstrated to the required level. Both these roles are, therefore, within the training organisation. The external quality assurance role is independent of the training organisations. These individuals are usually recruited on a self-employed basis by the awarding organisations, typically for a number of days work per year. They must hold the higher eqa qualification.

Question 105

Will there be vacancies directly within the controlling examining body for the ADI - ie. As an assessor?

Answer

In a vocational qualification the person who provides the training is, usually, also an assessor. Assessment takes place at the same time as training is being delivered. So anybody who signs up with an awarding organisation to deliver the vocational qualification will be an assessor. They can then go on to qualify as an internal quality assurance person if they want to.

Question 106

Will this affect the Voluntary Register of DSA Registered LGV Driving Instructors?

Answer

The proposed changes will not effect the voluntary LGV register. Trainers do not have to be ADIs to be on this register

Question 107

You are suggesting a minimum time for students to learn but what we all agree is that new drivers lack experience, you cannot teach experience you have to give the student the opportunity to feel it for themselves, that means mileage in the driving seat on roads they are not familiar with not forty hours driving around the same bubble no more than thirty minutes from the test centre where they plan to take their test. Twelve months learning time won’t work either unless a minimum experience clause is also worked on, then you have to monitor it. The reason Pass Plus has not been successful is because too many ADIs cheapen it off not wishing to do the distance or put some imagination into the job. Remember all the paying customer wants is to pass their test or get a certificate that will give them cheaper running costs. They are prepared to lean by accident if need be!”

Answer

This is a very important issue but it is not part of the ADI vocational qualification discussion. The government will be publishing a Young Drivers Green Paper in the autumn. That paper will be discussing options like minimum learning periods.

2.11 Webchats

Question 108

My question seems to have got lost. Is there any possibility that this session can be repeated at a later date in the evening when more can take part? Most instructors are out trying to earn a living and not able to be here. I shall have to leave shortly myself. DSA are asking 45000+ ADIs to give up several hours each, can the DSA not give just a few hours in the evening to those they are supposed to help? After all it can be done from your own home and not from the office. Cheers

Answer

Unfortunately we’re never going to be able to find a time that’s suitable for every ADI on the register to take part, whether it’s daytime or evening. The webchat is just one way of asking questions. You can also email them [email protected]. I will also be a guest on the next DIPOD (the driving instructor’s podcast) show, and you can send your questions to DIPOD now. I’m willing to run other webchats as and when necessary in future.

Question 109

Thanks for giving up your time to answer our questions Mark. Very much appreciated and hopefully we can have more webinars on other relevant topics in the future.

Answer

I’m happy to consider further webinars in the future.

Question 110

Will this web chat be a regular thing? A bit like the PMQT in the Commons?

Answer

I’m happy to consider doing further chats as and when necessary. It’s important that we get your views and opinions. I now encourage everyone to complete the online consultation questionnaire

3. More information

More information about the consultation has been published on GOV.UK.

• Modernising driver training - consultation
• Driving instructor qualification set for overhaul - news story
• How the modernising driver training proposals might work - Despatch ezine