Transparency data

PABEW meeting minutes, 6 February 2024

Updated 4 September 2024

Applies to England and Wales

Police Advisory Board for England and Wales  (PABEW)

6 February 2024, 10:30 – 12:30

Members present via video conference

Independent Chair

Julia Mulligan

PABEW Secretariat

Chris Moore

Police Federation of England and Wales (PFEW)

• Gemma Fox

• Bahar Munim

Police Superintendents’ Association (PSA)

• Dan Murphy

• Paul Griffiths

• Duncan Slade

Chief Police Officers’ Staff Association (CPOSA)

• Gareth Wilson

National Police Chiefs’ Council (NPCC)

• Stella Brooks

• Andy Fittes

Home Office (HO)

• Emma Plummer

• Tom Appleyard

• Carly Fry

College of Policing (CoP)

• Sandy Purewal

Met Trade Union

• Valerie Harris

Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC)

• Kathie Cashell

Association of Police and Crime Commissioners (APCC)

• Andrew Tremayne

Food Standards Agency (FSA)

• Giles Chapman

• StJohn Costelloe

Welcome and apologies

1. The Chair welcomed everyone to the meeting and noted apologies from Calum Macleod (PFEW), Helen Fisher (HO) Jeremy Vaughan (NPCC).

Minutes of the meeting 26 October 2023

2. Minutes were agreed from the 26 October 2023 meeting.

Action Point 1: Secretariat to finalise minutes of 26 October 2023 meeting and publish on the webpage. Action Complete

Action log of 26 October 2023

3. Action point 2: Andy Fittes (NPCC) to hold a PABEW working group on Secondment guidance. The Chair said it had taken place and would be covered in the agenda item.

4. Action point 3: The Chair and Jeremy Vaughan (NPCC) to hold a discussion on SAB funding structures. The Chair said the meeting had been held but there were various items and at the time of the meeting to be discussed at Chief’s Council. The Chair proposed closing the action and opening another to state a follow up meeting with Clair Alcock (NPCC) and Jeremy Vaughan (NPCC) to be arranged to discuss the outcomes of that meeting.

Action point 2: The Chair to hold a follow up meeting with Clair Alcock (NPCC) and Jeremy Vaughan (NPCC) to discuss the outcomes of the Chief Council regarding SAB funding structures.

Outstanding action points from previous meetings

5. 26 July 2023 -Action point 3: Stella Brooks (NPCC) to speak to Janette McCormick (CoP) on PSA’s concern over the lack of data collected on the implementation of the vetting code and how it could impact officers.

Stella Brooks (NPCC) said she had emailed Jeanette McCormick (CoP) who explained data was being tracked and was accessible to forces on the workforce data tracker so they could compare their data to other forces. The data looked at protected characteristics and other factors and a note would be circulated.

6. Paul Griffiths (PSA) asked if the data could be shared with staff associations. Stella Brooks (NPCC) said she would check with Jeanette McCormick (CoP). Paul Griffiths (PSA) asked if the action could be left open while it was decided if Staff associations could view the data. The Chair agreed.

Matters arising

None raised.

NPCC update: Guidance on police officer and staff secondments

7. Andy Fittes (NPCC) provided an update on the guidance drafting process and acknowledged recent comments and feedback received, particularly from Steve Penford, a lead from the employer side of the Police Staff Council. Comments, mainly related to sections concerning police staff, revealed potential shortcomings in the original drafting.

8. The intention was to redraft the sections, taking into account the specificity and variety of employment contracts within the police staff sector. Gratitude was expressed for the insights provided from Gemma Fox (PFEW) and others.

9. Andy Fittes (NPCC) said the aim was to circulate the revised drafts before the PABEW next meeting.  While progress was noted, and the hope was to finalise the guidance soon, ensuring it addresses the concerns raised by stakeholders.

Action point 3: Andy Fittes (NPCC) to circulate revised guidance on Police Officer and Staff Secondments before next PABEW meeting.

Police pensions: UK Police Pensions Consultative Forum and Scheme Advisory Board update.

Scheme Advisory Board and local pension boards

10. The Chair provided a recap of the 12 January 2024 SAB meeting on local pension boards. There was a discussion on how to fulfil SAB’s requirement to be able to provide advice to scheme managers. The Chair noted Joanne Livingstone (Fire SAB Chair) who also undergoing the same issues and the action taken was to meet her and exchange ideas.

11. The Chair said it also linked to the earlier discussion on the PABEW action log on taking the SAB forward. As SAB’s ability to engage with local pension boards also linked to how it was funded its resources and what it was able to be accomplish in the future.

Remedy implementation

12. The Chair said the SAB received a good overview from XPS, SMSG and NPCC.

There was a particular discussion around the delay in compensation guidance. An action from the HO was to provide a guidance note.

13. Tom Appleyard (HO) explained that it was still in development and that HO hoped to have it out shortly.

14. Dan Murphy (PSA) thanked Clair Alcock (NPCC) for trying to resolve matters. But said the PSA was still underwhelmed with the administrators, especially XPS due to the additional tax issues. He said if the compensation issue were not resolved, it would result in a legal claim.

15. Tom Appleyard (HO) explained that Helen Fisher (HO) and Clair Alcock (NPCC) were currently in a meeting with XPS to try to improve service to members. If any actions or agreements were reached, a note would be circulated.

Partial opt outs

16. The Chair acknowledged that Helen Fisher (HO) sent an e-mail on 19 January 2024 explaining what was needed for a business case and invited Gareth Wilson (CPOSA) to comment.

17. Gareth Wilson (CPOSA) said Shabir Hussain (CPOSA) was away. He noted CPOSA was the first to be asked to do a business case. But he would chat with Shabir first to discuss how to progress.

Pension input amounts

18. The Chair noted scheme managers indicated that achieving consistency was not a priority for them. Dan Murphy (PSA) expressed his concern, pointing out that the SAB’s role was to ensure consistency and questioned the governance structure in determining actions as SMSG were telling SAB what they would and would not pursue.

19. The Chair said the SAB had limitations, stating that while they can work towards consistency, they cannot impose it.

20. Dan Murphy (PSA) recognised the point, but wanted the issue recorded at PAB. He felt a lack of consistency could lead to legal challenges.

PABEW Discipline Sub-Committee Update

Police Dismissals Review

21. The Chair noted the regulations were published, and the consultation for tranche one was due to end shortly. As a result, PABEW needed to decide how to respond and to create a formal response.

22. Dan Murphy (PSA) said staff associations would not be able to respond substantively in the timeframe given to get advice on pages of legal regulations, some of which contained information not discussed in the engagement sessions.

23. On the regulations, Gemma Fox (PFEW) said several points needed to be further discussed and echoed PSA’s position that the timeframe was against the staff associations. Gemma Fox (PFEW) added that the guidance when reviewing the regulations would be beneficial, but it had not arrived despite the fast-approaching closing date.

24. Andrew Tremayne (APCC) said he had been a member of the board for a long time and tried to take a measured approach, but thought the consultation length potentially gave constituents a pause for thought in terms of their participation, whether or not it was worth the time and effort.

25. The Chair said there had yet to be a response to the letter sent out 16 January 2024. She stressed that HO had a statutory duty to consult with PABEW on the regulations and needed to do it in a way that allowed a proper response.

26. Tom Appleyard (HO) said it did not fall under his purview. But would speak to colleagues. He felt that, within 48 hours, he could establish where the correspondence had gone and what HO would do regarding a response.

27. The Chair agreed, pointing out that the 48 hours would last until the end of play on Thursday, 6 February, and the consultation was due to end on Friday, 9 February.

28. The Chair said she was available on Friday afternoon and suggested a discussion with available members and the possibility of a strongly worded letter. PAB members agreed.

Action Point 4: The Chair to hold an extraordinary DiSC meeting to discuss the PABEW response to tranche one of the HO dismissal review.

Code of Ethics

29. The Chair noted the launch was on the 24 January 2024 and asked members for comments.

30. Kathie Cashell (IOPC) said the launch was good but wanted to know if members felt the implementation plan would embed the code of ethics.

31. Gemma Fox (PFEW) said the engagement phase had taken place, and the product was launched, but there was nervousness about gaining consistency amongst the forces. She felt some forces would be committed to face-to-face delivery. However, due to demand and resource time, some would use the online e-account packages to tick the box effectively.

32. The Chair said the starting point should be to ask the CoP to let PABEW know how they would monitor implementation if it would dovetail with what forces would be monitoring, and if there would be consistency.

33. Andrew Tremayne (APCC) said there was not a coherent accountability framework in policing in England and Wales. As the CoP set the standards for policing but did not enforce the standards.

34. He said HMICFRS were likely to include the Code of Ethics and its implementation within its inspection regime, which would be an encouragement to forces to ensure that they were implementing the Code of Ethics and could demonstrate it when they were inspected.

35. The Chair said at the next DiSC meeting, she would consider sending an invitation for HMICFRS to see if there could be a detailed discussion around the issues, as collaboration with different partners was needed for implementation to be consistent and go well.

Home Office legislation update

36. Emma Plummer (HO) said there was no legislation for PABEW on the list, but had added the criminal justice bill requested by the Chair at the last meeting.

Any other business: Forthcoming FSA statutory instrument

37. StJohn Costelloe (FSA) introduced himself as a senior advisory lawyer with the Food Standards Agency who was drafting a set of regulations that implemented a redress mechanism for complaints about the misconduct of food crime officers.

38. Giles Chapman (FSA) added that FSA was at PABEW to fulfil obligations of the making of new statutory instruments relating to IOPC governance. The paper they had circulated to board members addressed the measures they were looking to take and noted low prospects and significant concerns from within the PABEW membership.

39. Giles Chapman (FSA) said there was an ambitious laying date for 14 March 2024. However, if there were any factors that board members wanted to raise based on the paper provided, FSA would be happy to take those reflections on board as they continue the journey towards finalising the regulations. Members had no comment.

40. The next meeting was scheduled for 30 April 2024.