Transparency data

SAB meeting minutes: 5 October 2023

Updated 16 September 2024

Applies to England and Wales

UK Police Pensions Consultative Forum and Scheme Advisory Board Meeting

31st Meeting, 5 October 2023, 10:30 – 14:30

Members present

Independent Chair - Julia Mulligan

Secretariat - Chris Moore

Police Federation of England and Wales (PFEW) – Attending as observers

• Mike Brown
• Gemma Lofts
• Gemma Fox
• Paul Turpin

Police Superintendents’ Association (PSA) - Dan Murphy (SAB Member)

Association of Police and Crime Commissioners (APCC) - Andy Tremayne (SAB Member)

Chief Police Officers’ Staff Association (CPOSA) - Shabir Hussain (SAB Member)

National Police Chief’s Council (NPCC)

• Jeremy Vaughan
• Nicholas Barker (SAB Member)
• Kevin Courtney
• Clair Alcock
• Claire Neale

National Association of Retired Police Officers (NARPO) - Alan Lees

Home Office (HO)

• Sara Alderman
• Tantara Fox-Stillwell
• Helen Fisher

Superintendent’s Association of Northern Ireland (SANI) - Amanda Ford

Association of Scottish Police Superintendents (ASPS) - Stewart Carle

Police Federation Northern Ireland (PFNI) - Liam Kelly

Department of Justice, Northern Ireland (DoJNI)

• Antonia Hoskins 
• Victoria Elliott

Scottish Police Authority

• John MacLean
• Alasdair Corfield
• Sharon Dalli

Scottish Police Federation (SPF) - David Kennedy

Government Actuary Department (GAD)

• Samantha Watts 
• Robert Fornear

Scottish Public Pensions Agency (SPPA) - Alan Wilkinson

First Actuarial

• Craig Moran
• James Allen

The Pensions Regulator (TPR) -  Nick Gannon

Welcome and apologies

1. The Chair welcomed members, and apologies were received from Iain Coltman (SPPA). Minutes of the previous quarterly meeting were agreed.

Action point 1: Secretariat to publish finalised minutes of 29 June 2023 on webpage. (Completed).

Action log of 29 June 2023

The Chair went through the action log of 29 June 2023, which has been updated in the light of discussion. Key points of all the actions discussed were:

Action point 2 - Clair Alcock (NPCC) will work with PSA regarding comms to retiring members on honorariums and pensionable pay. Clair Alcock (NPCC) said the action was ongoing and part of NPCC contingent decision guidance. When ready to consult further it would be discussed with the PSA.

Action point 4 - The Chair will write a paper on SAB’s future work plan and resourcing and circulate it to members over the summer. The Chair said the action would be covered later on the agenda.

Clair Alcock (NPCC) to discuss Legacy scheme opt-outs with the SMSG forum and then update the SAB. The Chair said the action would be covered later on the agenda.

Reflections / matters arising from ministerial roundtable (all, Chair to lead)

2. A ministerial roundtable was held on 20 September to discuss pensions matters. Lisa Winward (CPOSA) and Dan Murphy (PSA) felt it was a helpful meeting regarding the conversations that came out and the opportunity to have an open discussion about the fact that retire and return was a big issue due to the pension changes.

3. Jeremy Vaughan (NPCC) said NPCC had circulated guidance to each force for the chief to determine how they use, retire and re-join as a tool because it was permissible under the regulations. He felt the broader issue was 43 chief constables determining what they do and that one delegated scheme manager arrangement would improve decision making.

4. Helen Fisher (HO) said Minister Philip made the point that chief constables needed to be in control of their workforce, and there needed to be a measured approach as they had to consider performance concerns and other discretions.

5. There was debate among members over the outcomes of the meeting and the actions that the minister had taken. HO said there were no plans for a minuted release of the discussion. They would check with the  Minister’s office about the list of actions.

6. Helen Fisher (HO) had an action to distribute the list of outcomes from the ministerial round table. (Complete - circulated by HO on 18.10.2023).

7. The Chair asked what the employer wanted from a workforce strategy that SAB could help with. Jeremy Vaughan (NPCC) noted an under-resourced National Reward Team and the need to develop a workforce strategy that would take time. In the next six months, he felt it was unlikely to get an agreement from the Treasury to change abatement to encourage people to stay in order to retain their skills in the short term, which was partly the purpose of the ministerial round table.

8. Given SAB’s role in providing advice to the Secretary of State on regulatory issues, Jeremy Vaughan (NPCC) felt it helpful for the Chair to receive an employer position on how the Scheme Advisory Board might help amend the regulations. Jeremy Vaughan (NPCC) felt the focus should be on what was the incentive to retain skilled officers, and took an action to write to the Chair to set out what the employer’s position is on what they might want from the SAB.

Action point 2: Jeremy Vaughan (NPCC) to write to the Chair on how the scheme Advisory Board might help amend the regulations on retire and return.

Future of SAB – proposal

9. The Chair explained that she had prepared a draft paper, which had yet to be circulated to the SAB and would not hold a substantive discussion about that item until members had seen that paper and she had held an informal meeting with Jeremy Vaughan (NPCC).

10. Shabir Hussain (CPOSA) asked if the paper included the previously discussed SAB circular, namely the intention to formalise communication between the SAB and the schemes rather than ad hoc emails and Word documents. The Chair responded that the paper does make the provision for formalising communications, although they may not be referred to as circulars.

SMSG - Update 

11. Jeremy Vaughan (NPCC) said he felt the steering group was a helpful step forward for scheme managers as each region now had a place to discuss, debate, and take a more precise policy position.

12. Clair Alcock (NPCC) agreed and felt her team had benefited from the ability to talk about any concerns that matter to scheme managers. NPCC would also update members later in the meeting on specific issues cited on the implementation of remedy.

GAD - Valuation 2020 update

 Robert Fornear (GAD) provided a presentation on provisional valuation results based on a slide deck circulated after the meeting. The key Q&A points are summarised below:

13. Craig Moran (First Actuarial) asked that as the SAB was due a response to the assumptions letter, whether the assumptions underline the valuation and align with the initial proposal or if there were any changes. Robert Fornear (GAD) stated that no feedback had resulted in a change to the proposal.

14. The Chair asked about data on those withdrawing from the scheme. Robert Fornear (GAD) explained at each valuation, GAD took in withdrawal data, and at the 2016 valuation, there was a significant increase from what was assumed in 2012. However, it was agreed that it was potentially an anomalous period. GAD took more data in 2020. For the four years between 2016 and 2020, the previous increases in the opt out rates continued at about double the valuation assumptions.

15. Clair Alcock (NPCC) asked what the revised cost cap position was once the 2016 valuation was redone following McCloud. Robert Fornear (GAD) said initially, before the pause of the cost cap in 2016, there was a downward pressure, but after McCloud, there was a very significant upward pressure well above the cost cap ceiling up to about 20%. But the breach was negated by Treasury with no changes in benefits. Due to that, when reapplying, the check is always against the employer cost from 2012, as 2016 ended up with no changes.

16. Craig Moran (First Actuarial) asked if SAB could get a copy of the slide deck. Robert Fornear (GAD) said he would circulate them to the distribution group straight after the meeting.

Remedy implementation – joint verbal update, NPCC and Home Office

Clair Alcock (NPCC) provided a presentation on remedy implementation. The key Q&A points were summarised below:

17. Dan Murphy (PSA) raised concerns regarding challenges faced by PSA members in obtaining their pension figures promptly, stating that there needed to be a clear communication channel between staff associations and the main pension administrator, XPS. He felt more urgency was required, especially in cases where individuals are retiring imminently.

18. Delays were reported in pension calculations due to forces being unable to input necessary data into the calculator for contributions. Administrative support and knowledge regarding annual allowance calculations were highlighted as lacking, contributing to further delays. PSA members experiencing withheld pensions expressed financial hardships and sought guidance on complaints and compensation.

19. Dan Murphy (PSA) suggested that chief constables conduct a user experience assessment nationwide. He said another issue was the requirement for individuals to give three to six months’ notice of intention to retire to claim their pension benefits. There was a need for widespread publicity to ensure awareness.

20. PSA acknowledged the efforts in sharing information through the NPCC website but felt there was a need for additional strategies to disseminate information effectively.

21. Helen Fisher (HO) said a member did not need to provide three to six months member notice to retire. It was a recommendation in the regulations that they try to give their administrators around three to six months’ notice of requiring an RSS, but there was flexibility for scheme managers to accept less notice. Clair Alcock (NPCC) agreed it was only a recommendation and that there was a need to ensure no misinterpretation of that fact.

22. Clair Alcock (NPCC) said NPCC had drafted a pre-emptive email reminding people of their duties, which would be sent out after the meeting to reflect  the Scheme Advisory Board recollections of members not receiving quotations. She also noted Jeremy Vaughan (NPCC) had already written to chiefs on the matter but could potentially do so again.

23. The Chair asked NPCC how the SAB could assist. Clair Alcock (NPCC) said it was early days and a suitable rhythm would likely occur by December. But she felt a letter addressed to Jeremy Vaughan (NPCC) and herself that explained the issues members faced being laid out would strengthen the case for NPCC comms on the matter.

24. The Chair asked members to send evidence and data to the Secretariat to gain understanding for those affected, and then she would write and circulate the draft of a letter.

Action point 3: SAB members to send evidence of pension issues/delays to PABEW Secretariat inbox. The Chair to draft a letter to Jeremy Vaughan (NPCC) and Clair Alcock (NPCC).

Presentation by the Pensions Regulator

Nick Gannon (TPR) provided a presentation on the results of the governance and administration survey of public service pension schemes. The key Q&A points are summarised below:

25. Nick Gannon (TPR) said the annual governance and administration survey of public service pension schemes was conducted with a high response rate of 94% of schemes and about 99% of members. The responses were anonymous unless specified otherwise by the respondent.

26. The key themes reflected a growing concern about the time and resources required to manage pension schemes, particularly regarding recruitment and retention Nick Gannon (TPR) felt McCloud remediation had thrown the issue into a stark contrast.

27. While governance and administration in police schemes were improving in some areas, there needed to be more clarity about whether schemes were fully equipped for future challenges.

28. There was a positive trend in taking risks more seriously. Breaches of the law were rarely reported to The Pensions Regulator (TPR), with no police schemes reporting breaches in the past year despite 13% of schemes identifying them.

29. Only three-quarters of schemes had all six key governance features in place, indicating room for improvement in implementing basic governance measures.

30. There was an expectation that pension boards should meet at least four times a year to stay informed and address emerging issues. Most schemes met expectations, ensuring regular oversight and discussion.

31. The strain on resources was acknowledged, but positive efforts were noted in maintaining regular pension board meetings.

32. The awareness of new and emerging risks was deemed crucial, and schemes are encouraged to stay informed about court cases and changes that could impact pension schemes.

33. Only about 12% of police schemes are aware of a new enforcement policy, indicating a potential communication gap.

34. Nick Gannon (TPR) said while improvements were seen in some areas, there were persistent challenges in implementing basic governance features and ensuring full awareness of regulatory policies.

35. Sharon Dalli (SPA) asked if the results included Scotland and Northern Ireland. Nick Gannon (TPR) confirmed they did. The Chair asked if SAB could have access to the slide deck. Nick Gannon (TPR) said he would circulate the slides after the meeting.

Scotland and NI

36. Sharon Dalli (SPA) said the Scottish perspective on the remedy indicated similarities with the situation in England and Wales. The Scottish regulations for the remedy were laid on 30 August, posing challenges due to their ambiguity.

37. Issues around data related to the merger of forces a decade ago created complications. However, having a single scheme manager and administrator for Scotland facilitated smoother communication.

38. The establishment of a joint remedy working group in Scotland enabled direct communication. A communication strategy is in place, emphasising the Scottish Public Pensions Agency (SPPA) as the central source of information. Efforts have been made to address concerns about benefits payments for those retiring post-October, including a contingency manual workaround by SPPA.

39. There were complex areas, such as contributions calculations and adjustments. Ongoing work included asset reassessments, health, contingent decisions, and compensation guidance. Similar to England and Wales, attention was turning towards the annual allowance, especially with the release of the HMRC calculator.

40. Collaboration with NPCC and information-sharing between Scotland, England, and Wales was ongoing. Sharon Dalli (SPA) felt that the direct engagement approach yielded benefits in navigating the complexities of the remedy.

Opt-outs

41. Clair Alcock (NPCC) said SAB had previously discussed opt-outs, and there was an action to take away to see what the scheme managers’ steering group felt about what CPOSA had termed partial opt-outs.

42. Clair Alcock (NPCC) reported that SMSG feedback agreed that opt-outs were a concern but wanted clarity about what partial opt-outs would achieve and how it would help with workforce policies. The SMSG felt there needed to be more information to support a particular view on partial opt-outs.

43. Shabir Hussain (CPOSA) expressed concern about the delay in addressing the issue of partial opt-outs, which he raised last November. He referred to a Treasury permission regarding partial opt-outs for taxation management. He suggested that it could be implemented without requiring extensive paperwork.

44. Helen Fisher (HO) responded by emphasising the legislative structure for public sector pension schemes, explaining that no direct convention required everything from other public sector schemes to be automatically applied to the police scheme. She did not fully understand the term “partial opt-out” and the needed clarity on the ask and the problem it was trying to solve.

45. The Chair suggested to understand better and address the confusion on the issue of partial opt-outs, a sub-meeting between Shabir Hussain (CPOSA), Helen Fisher (HO), and Clair Alcock (NPCC) should be held to bring more clarity and understanding to the issue.

Action point 4: A meeting to be held between HO, NPCC, and CPOSA to understand the objectives of partial opt-outs.

Letter from Policing Minister – CARE revaluation dated 28 July 2023

46. Shabir Hussain (CPOSA) thanked the Chair for chasing the response to the letter said at the last meeting. He said SAB agreed to revisit the issue after the September CPI figures. CPOSA felt it was important to reassess the figures to understand the harm to members and then discuss them at the next SAB meeting. He cited Craig Moran’s (First Actuarial) point from the previous meeting that not changing the date and delaying decisions worsens the situation.

47. Craig Moran (First Actuarial) and Clair Alcock (NPCC) agreed to meet outside of SAB to check the figures and report the findings to SAB.

Action point 5: Craig Moran (First Actuarial) and Clair Alcock (NPCC) to revisit the impact of CPI prospectively to understand the impacts and return to SAB with an outlook.

Scheme Pays Mechanism Report

48. Clair Alcock (NPCC) said an action was to review whether the scheme pays mechanism remained fair and reasonable based on First Actuarial’s report. SAB members agreed there was no further action to be taken.

49. Craig Moran (First Actuarial) noted there were some minor suggested actions and said he would summarise them and send to Clair Alcock (NPCC) after the meeting to see if a view could be taken on whether to send an email to GAD to ask those questions or close the actions.

Action point 6: Craig Moran (First Actuarial) to summarise Scheme Pays Mechanism Report minor suggested actions and send to Clair Alcock (NPCC) for a decision to send to GAD or close the actions.

Any other business 

50. The Chair thanked members for their contributions and closed the meeting.

51. The next meeting was scheduled for 12 January 2024.